Building Stacklist

The Jam Team! - Building Communities with Storytelling and Innovation

• Stacklist • Season 2 • Episode 3

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Summary

In this engaging conversation, Kyle Hudson, Ivanha, and Ian discuss their personal experiences, the evolution of their respective companies, Jam and Stacklist, and the challenges and joys of remote work. They delve into marketing strategies, community building, and the importance of storytelling in content creation. The discussion highlights the significance of creating a vibrant company culture, the role of technology in enhancing productivity, and the need for authentic engagement with users. The conversation wraps up with insights on how to effectively share knowledge and foster connections within their communities.


Ivanha Paz:

And so you sort of forget a little bit of what marketing actually is, which is art and it's craft and it's joy.

Ian McClanan:

Who are the domain experts and how do we get their domain of expertise? As a knowledge gap that's solved through Stacklist.

Kyle Hudson:

Where does the jam vibe come from, hi Hello.

Ivanha Paz:

How are you?

Kyle Hudson:

Doing good. How's the day?

Ivanha Paz:

good, okay, tell me the truth. Can you hear me breathe in my microphone?

Kyle Hudson:

do you? Hear it if you do like, if you do the pronounced sniffy, then then I can't but like just sit for a second, I don't hear it. But if you're doing the like, do I have a stuffy nose thing? Then I get that, I can hear I've never had a mic before.

Ivanha Paz:

This is like this. Oh so I don't know where to put it?

Kyle Hudson:

are we breaking this mic in? Is this like yeah, well, I broke it.

Ivanha Paz:

Tried to break it in yesterday, uh, and what happened was ian was like. I can hear you breathing wait, okay.

Kyle Hudson:

So when ian comes on, let's, let's both, let's both like, just sniff, like every now and then and just see if, like, if, if he notices, um, how you doing good good, I told you it's my son's birthday, like I don't know. Oh, that's right happy birthday, you can. You can send him a clip of me singing amazing and it's uh.

Ivanha Paz:

Two is that right two, two, two years, that's amazing it's so fast. He's almost ready for college.

Kyle Hudson:

Yeah, I know, I've got a four-year-old that's going on 14. What did he say? The other day we sat and played an Xbox racing game and he was like good race, bro. I was like wait a second. What do you mean, bro? Just don't, don't't, don't, let's, let's, don't get into. Uh, yeah, that's you don't need to go around calling everyone bro but it sounds funny when he says it, but like it's so funny, it just I stubbed my toe or like whatever it was.

Ivanha Paz:

Something happened that caused me to say a swear word loudly. And he's in the stage where he's repeating everything and I had and I haven't had to think about this so much yet because he's he's been so little right like I'm listening to, to songs that swear, and I'm swearing like I've never really thought about it. He's a baby totally and now I was like shit. He was like behind me, like oh, amazing.

Kyle Hudson:

Yeah, uh, I I heard something here. Yeah, william, or my oldest is eight, hasn't, hasn't started like repeating, like swear words, but but I did hear in the other the other day, like playing legos with matthew, who's the the younger brother, and william was like, oh man, I really screwed that up and like it just felt like that's sort of like okay, are you stressed out?

Ivanha Paz:

Like is the job? Like too much, totally yeah.

Kyle Hudson:

Oh my gosh, funny, funny boys. Well, that's amazing. When are you doing party stuff?

Ivanha Paz:

Party stuff today actually.

Kyle Hudson:

Oh, wow, yeah.

Ivanha Paz:

Yeah, yeah, it's party.

Kyle Hudson:

Free starts at five nice oh and it ends at seven oh yeah, we just had uh william turned eight and we had 10 of his friends over, three boys and seven girls how many do you have?

Ivanha Paz:

I keep on here. There's like two, three so far.

Kyle Hudson:

Oh, okay well yeah, just do it. Yeah, two, williams eight and matthews four, um, and so, uh, william had 10, 10 friends over and three boys and seven girls. And god, the boys like, oh my gosh, I just like every other poop joke, and you know what I mean. And they're like all, like, they're all in every, every single kids and PJs, and they're all like doing a movie. They were watching the wild robot and, of course, it felt like the boys were on the back row. These two, two speaker, yeah, totally All bro. And then, like these two sweet girls would come in and go, the boys are throwing popcorn, and I all bro. And then, like these two sweet girls would come in and go, the boys are throwing popcorn, and I would go in there, listen. But I mean, I'm like, no, listen, no popcorn, don't jump on the couch, you know.

Kyle Hudson:

and and then, of course, about halfway through the movie, they all go out to my son's room and you can just hear him jumping off the second like um oh no the bunk bed and I'm like, can we please don't jump off the bunk you know what I mean it just felt like a and I, of course, like I, I'm an empath that sort of feels and hears and takes in all the signals from all the things. So I'm just, I'm just sort of like, as everyone's leaving, my wife's like, okay, let's just. Let's just take a minute.

Ivanha Paz:

Ian's in the way. Do you see Ian? He's told me he ends in the way. Do you see ian? He's telling me he's in the waiting room.

Kyle Hudson:

Yeah, I just, I don't know where ian. Let's see if. Oh, there he is. It didn't get it. Didn't give me a notification. Riverside, I gotta talk to you about that. Can't leave ian in the waiting room no worries, no worries, kyle silly hi thanks for thanks for having me wait, can you hear us sniffing? Can you hear us?

Ivanha Paz:

I was telling Kyle how I don't know where to put my mic.

Ian McClanan:

Oh, was it the gain, the gain thing the breathing and the mics.

Ivanha Paz:

So, like the first thing I did when I joined, I was like Kyle, can you hear this? It was like when you do a pronounced sniff, then yes, I can.

Kyle Hudson:

I can hear it um how are you?

Ivanha Paz:

how's it going?

Kyle Hudson:

uh, your, your, your sound sounds so good yeah oh, thank you.

Ian McClanan:

Well, let me know if you can hear me breathing too. I don't know if I also have these, these gain problems, but no, but no, I'm good. I like, uh, yeah, right, like thursday is crunch time in the jam week and so um, so yeah what's crunch time mean?

Kyle Hudson:

oh, it's just like what's crunch time in this in in jam land.

Ian McClanan:

So jam world. We post 7 am every friday, dilly jam. Of course we're the same type of you. You know we're in the same same game here um building.

Kyle Hudson:

I'm talking about building stack list yeah and so.

Ian McClanan:

So what it looks like so what it looks like here, um, on thursday, is that we're we're prepping, you know, we're sharing in drafts, we're prepping clips and all this, all this sort of thing and so, um. So in my world looks like a lot of editing, a lot of sharing. Sharing drafts, a lot of like thumbnails, like this is something I've started to care a bit about more and just to put more attention to, and so I'm going through a whole bunch of these, you know, tying together all these different tools, making different stuff and proposing stuff.

Kyle Hudson:

So yeah, oh my gosh, that's the, that's the Mr Beast philosophy right Of, just like getting those thumbnails and and titles like just right, so that it catches.

Ivanha Paz:

Yeah, I mean it's a whole thing right in youtube.

Kyle Hudson:

It's like the most important thing I think we're realizing, like the, the yeah when we like think through, to stand out in just like half a second, that's we haven't. Obviously. We're just like we're in the place where we're more about just making sure that we are posting something.

Kyle Hudson:

So there's like a heartbeat to things and that we're like we're testing out a few memes're more about just making sure that we are posting something. So there's like a heartbeat to things and that we're like we're testing out a few memes and things like that, but we haven't gotten to a place where we've we've started in a refinement yet, but amazing. Well, I like, before we dive into this, thank you both for taking time during, especially during crunch time, to to of course kyle, of course, but I mean, I just so.

Kyle Hudson:

I just want to start off by saying like, this journey is so fun and interesting, what was it? I went to one of my first events in new york and I met some um, uh, someone from, uh, union square ventures. And then how did this? How do how do we get? So? This is the here's the thread. I met someone from union square ventures and we talked about stack list and then I started looking into union square ventures and I looked into, you know who union square?

Kyle Hudson:

had had invested in and I started going through a portfolio and then I stumble on jam, I install jam and then I'm like martina, our cto. I'm like you've got to use jam, and now I've got got this thing I got to post today on X, by the way, which is basically us in Slack we're moving from Jira to Linear, and one of Martina's first questions was does it integrate with Jam? And so I sent her a screenshot of the Linear integration.

Ivanha Paz:

She was like okay, good, so this is what our uh cto approved, uh the first time that we heard about stacklist is well, due to a contest right like, and we had that's right so that's how we sort of like heard about you and met you and I remember like the first thing I thought, without like ever having seen StackList no contracts about it I just saw like Kyle from StackList and I was so happy that that was the winner, because StackList is such a cool name. This is going to be a cool company to have a cool name, so that's awesome.

Kyle Hudson:

Amazing. Well, thank you, that's right, though we actually first sort of interacted because, ian, you read my name to the public and said the winner, which was amazing, by the way.

Kyle Hudson:

I I got to go see zuck um give a talk, which was amazing. But I just love how it feels like our kind of um uh, both cultures and product and like the intersections are so interesting, even though you all are sort of you know maybe. Let's say I'm in, we're in like sixth or seventh grade and you guys are in high school and are playing like the varsity sports and we're like oh my gosh, but it's just so cool to see like the, the evolution and to hear the stories and and but, to also really interact with you all because I just love you know the, the culture and the, the vibe that that jam has.

Kyle Hudson:

I would love, I would love to know y'all's POV on on from a jam perspective, like how, how and where does that, where does the jam vibe come from?

Ivanha Paz:

honestly, I think, like if you my really my real honest answer, I think it comes a lot from, from the jam founders like that's, that's where I think, like the, the vibes start right and that their, their personalities really sort of influence the, the, the startup, and and what we want to do and how we are. So like that's the biggest place and then, like you know, marketing.

Kyle Hudson:

Yeah, yeah, no, but I'm not even talking from a marketing Like. There's a difference between, like, a company having a face that sort of seems fun. But really like you two, both. I mean I know Danny's, because Danny's was the most fun episode to ever like record, because you can even see, even from, like even Danny sort of emulates and sort of brings forward even through the camera.

Kyle Hudson:

Like it's one of those where most interviews that I've got on we sort of talk like this and we go, oh, that's so interesting or whatever. But Danny's, we were just like cutting up, and you know what I mean. Like it just sort of but and but but you both, I think. I think it's so different to have one person that sort of stands out in that way. But you both have such a great energy and and and a vibe that sort of continues to like build upon that, like that jamness, um, which is amazing, so, um, I love it and and and I'm interested to know how much uh like within the company. From a remote perspective, it kind of feels like that too yeah, what do you mean?

Kyle Hudson:

like, just from like, from a, from an all I I on our podcast we also danny and I talked about like I told. I told her she should go on slack and say that she said that she's mandating a uh, a return to office policy for everyone immediately. Um, but like, but at that point there was no office, but like from a remote, from a remote company perspective, like how you sort of keep the, how do you keep kind of the, the energy and and the vibe, even internally, from a remote perspective.

Ian McClanan:

Yeah, well, I think one thing for me that was new with Jam, versus being all remote, versus before I was primarily in office and with this I think that our like how we're communicating on Slack and like all the just the expectations around the level of communication and the is different than I've experienced in the past and so with that it's like like there's like very, very proactive, very um, caught like everyone, like chiming in is something that's been new to me and it's something that I think really speaks to the yeah, like speaks to the cultural like just what the norm is at jam and um and yeah, and I think that the like, also the, this like positivity and this like sort of this uh brand, uh tone, I think also comes through actually through the product as well, like, like with the attention to design in it, like I could imagine a version of this product, of our product, that would be very um, like, with different founders, in a different culture, would be just like a totally different right, like a linear style, super, totally minimalist.

Ian McClanan:

We are. We are about speed and efficiency and I think it's a very intentional utility.

Ian McClanan:

It's like utility first, that's the thing you can, you know, versus like having the the strawberry jam kind of feel is that exactly, and so I think that that was a like, that's a choice that is also reflected in the culture but also comes through, actually the like like through the product as well, and it's a cool. It's cool to see that show itself in both places.

Ivanha Paz:

Yeah.

Ian McClanan:

Nice yeah.

Ivanha Paz:

I think there's a few things I've noticed that Jam does. That, I think, work well for remote that I wasn't super used to Like. It's like a little different. Sort of little like idiosyncrasies, for example, like at Jam. Uh, sort of little like idiosyncrasies, for example, like at jam, nobody's going to shy away from like, just like huddling you, you know, if it's like a 30 second thing, like you know what, like I'm just going to call you, and so it makes you feel a little bit closer because there's no like can you talk, can we schedule a zoom, can we net? So things right away you can just huddle or or like. For example, danny, she loves to send like voice notes as feedback I do too.

Kyle Hudson:

It's so. It's so good to be able to just like, instead of typing it out, and free form a little bit. You get that extra little context and like emotion and other stuff.

Ivanha Paz:

It's so good yeah, and like the tone of it and everything. It's like I think there's definitely some drawbacks to remote work which you have to consciously try to work around, and those are some of the ways that that we do. And then, when we have off sites, that definitely like, you can definitely feel like those three or four days like the boost. And well, I always say, like the boost in like work productivity, it's like wow, but the boost, it like it's off, like, but like the boost, how much you understand the company, what's happening, everybody else around you, uh, is so amazing, like really, it's um, so like that combination of like going to off sites, taking advantage and then doing all those little things like slack, huddles what is the um?

Kyle Hudson:

what is? I'd love to hear both of y'all's journeys from a jam perspective, like when? When did you join? At what stage, and and and kind of what have you seen through the evolution?

Ivanha Paz:

Ian, do you want to tell them?

Ian McClanan:

Well, yeah, I guess we we both started about a year and a little in a few months ago, and what's funny is that we were we actually started like within two days of each other, and this is amazing. Yeah and oh. This is amazing. Yeah and so, um. So, while while ivana's job title is the founding marketer, I will let the record show that I was a day before ivana oh yeah, no, but, but um, but yeah.

Ian McClanan:

So we both started um at Jam around the same time. There's, like in the product and company story, like after we had like these tell-all signs of a product market fit, and like starting to grow, and it'd be like this is the time for more marketing, just focus as a company. Like this is when we both joined. And for me, I actually heard about the job through the Lenny's Podcast community Slack channel and it was because I was a big fan of Lenny's before. For me, I think it's my favorite product podcast and the preeminent example of what a great B2B podcast looks like. And so I was in that community when I saw this job post and I think that was a early signal that this we were going to be aligned in terms of what our sort of content visions were going to look like. And so for me, like I'd never been, like I'm current, so I'm, my job title is creator, but beforehand I'd never been. I'd never been a creator. Like I was a product marketer before, and for me, with the, what this looked like was I was making a lot of these demo videos of our, of our tool. Before um I still I was looking back. It's still live the how choco works. The video I made before in, before in the last, in the last role and it's funny because I was the um I've made this transition between I was like the, the.

Ian McClanan:

We did it in a scrappy way. I was the scrappy sort of narrator, internal narrator, so we didn't hire someone else to do it. I was like I'm not paying someone, I'm not paying someone to do a voiceover when I could do a damn good job myself, um, and so I did the, so I did the, the voiceover for that. And that was the start of it. And I was like, oh, I was making all this stuff for the sales team and I was like, oh, I like this thing.

Ian McClanan:

And so when I was I, I was in berlin for this time and then I decided I wanted to move back to the us and so I, um, when I was looking for my next like, looking for the next role, I said this oh, create a role at a startup, like what is this? And so that's what's really taking me down, this sort of like for me in my career generally, like, I see it as like, I move towards this sort of like product educator type, uh, role and function, and that's the thing that's what's really been exciting to me is, like these skills All this editing has been new for me Before. I always came at it from a marketing side. I was briefing different people on the team about how we do stuff like this, but now I find myself in the middle of it, right, learning how to actually do this skill set and try to do it well.

Kyle Hudson:

Well, you're doing amazingly and I will say, you know, with the way that, the way that I see jam sort of out and about it, doesn't it? It's doing its job and that it doesn't feel like marketing. Um, because I think there's this like, if you think about, when I think about someone that is like a founder, like company, that that maybe loves product and just sort of like talks about product features and sort of put stuff out there, and then also there's the marketing which is like trying to sell the sort of the benefits, and then that gray space in the middle. You know, I think that's where you know we're seeing so many more people living and breathing and sort of in that sort of. You know, is what?

Kyle Hudson:

What does this mean? It's blending the sort of culture and features and benefits and and being able to sort of communicate that also in an authentic way and not in a, when I think about sort of old school advertising right, mad men, kind of just there's a poster and it's got a benefit that sort of catches, you're gonna, you know, you're gonna lose weight or you're gonna like whatever you know, versus like seeing the stuff, that stuff that you guys do on showing the features and the funny stuff and showing the product demo videos and things like that. It feels so authentic that you can almost like just feel yourself using it or what it's going to be like to sort of have it in your team.

Ivanha Paz:

Oh, thank you. The thing about like the jam audience that kind of makes this easy, like not, I mean of makes this easy, like not. I mean it's not easy, but I mean it's just. It like makes so much sense, right, it's because the gem audience is just like people building other products, right. So it's like of it's like we have so much to talk about, like with each other, you know. So it's like so easy to sort of, like, you know, make a video about this feature that we're launching, or make this, and then do it from this perspective of like let me show you how we built it or the challenges that we came up against. And it's not like because it's like what I mean. What I mean to say is that for us, it's like a fun conversation to have, or a fun video to make, and for the people we hope, right, like for the gem community, it's also just like interesting.

Kyle Hudson:

Yeah.

Ivanha Paz:

And at the same time, like, obviously right, like you're showing the product, you're letting them know what it can do, but you're doing it in this way. That is just kind of more fun for everybody who likes to build software.

Kyle Hudson:

Totally, and what would you say from a company building perspective, like, what should you know, martina and I and the team take away from like from your? You know, from the time that you all started over the past year, what have you kind of learned in that sort of marketing and creator space of kind of what works in terms of um, because I obviously, you know, I think people start companies and then you sort of you really start throwing spaghetti at everything. Right, you've got like you've got like funny stuff and serious stuff and product feature stuff and you've got memes and you know what I mean. Like you're you're really just sort of trying to find what fits like. What have you both kind of learned um from um, from your your past year at jam, I think, for me, yeah, for me, what I've seen, I guess the.

Ian McClanan:

The first question to ask about the, the marketing and the. For me, like particularly the content that I'm I'm making is, like, what is the primary? Uh, like, what's the primary goal? Is this, like supposed to be a primary, like growth driver for the business, or is this supposed to be like um, is this serving a different, a different function? Like, maybe this would be like um, you know, making your product feel like a well-wrapped gift. You know, like, when someone's in an onboarding email, right, and they, they're, they're being welcome, right, that's a different audience. That's not like you know me telling you and walking through all the features of of jam and telling you about everything new. Like this is that will be relevant for a different audience than you making short, like you doing short form channels and like going 100 on that and like basically making videos for people that don't know or aren't invested in your story. Um, right and so, like us making the building jam podcast like this. This, for example, is a um. Like this is a, a play over, it's a long-term play and and we're hoping that we really make this place where we've documented our journey and it's and it's providing helpful. It's providing helpful insights and stuff, but it's also um, it's a longer term um, also like vision and part of something that we're building and so, um.

Ian McClanan:

So I think, for me, like, uh, like after you define what these things are, we, we have dabbled and we keep like going down experiments in each of these sorts of realms and like, for us, what it looked like at one point was this, like we called it, the owl experiment, where basically, I was making I was going on these one day sprints, where I was like I'm going to make a engaging video that's not about jam, about something that our audience, like our audience, would be interested in. I'm going to do that every day. For however long it was it was like a month and it was like, literally, what matters is just getting better at doing this and and that, and at the end of that experiment, we're like, wow, okay, well, these videos aren't particularly working well in terms of driving new people to the product. Um, what if this effort was instead more focused on making all these things that we're doing, like all these uh, like, uh, focused on these, these other the, these other channels and other places? And so that was an example of a uh, I don't know a time where, like us clarifying, like I don't know, we've dabbled in having these different goals and different focuses as a team.

Ian McClanan:

Um, but knowing where, like how you primarily are playing into that, like I could see for for you all, like having clearly the icp telling you how they're using stacklist every day to organize restaurants, to organize all like their the book, their favorite books, like literally hearing from the icp every single day, feels like something that is like could help you reach a larger audience. And then there's this other thing of like oh like. Is this onboarding? Like how are we building out the best and most inviting and great onboarding flow too, which is sort of a different goal of the content?

Kyle Hudson:

Yeah, no, that's great. Yeah, I thought of what you guys said.

Ivanha Paz:

I think like the biggest thing that I've learned at jam is gonna sound a little bit weird, but I was thinking about it when you said. I was like what am I gonna say? But like the truth of, I think the biggest thing I've learned like this past year is kind of like the. The definition that I used to have of marketing has changed and what I think that marketing is has changed.

Ivanha Paz:

Um, because I most of my experience, marketing software has been like at sales led companies, so marketing at a sales let's up for company is completely different ballgame and and so you sort of forget a little bit of like what marketing actually is, um, which is art and it's craft and it's joy and um, that's what I got to do a jam like every day, which is like awesome and but also like really, really, really challenging, like so much harder than I thought, like writing a tweet, like a two line tweet. I could spend honestly, like two hours going back and forth and rethinking it and no, and just like trying to get it just right because it's art and that's what I think marketing should be, and rethinking it and know, and just like trying to get it just right because it's art and and that's what I I think marketing should be yeah, no, totally I think it.

Kyle Hudson:

I think it's so different from I was at a software startup that that was primarily b2b and it was a sales-led company. It really felt like one of those like what, how much are you going to save me? How much quicker and faster and better is this than the alternative? And if you can prove that, and I trust you, I'll buy your thing. And so like everything is sort of so focused and tactical on that that it becomes easy to just basically refine that message so different to sit down and sort of write who are we?

Ivanha Paz:

right. What do we like and like why?

Kyle Hudson:

why do we care? Oh, why do you care? Or where are we headed? And do you want to come along with the journey? Like it's, it's, you're, you're crafting that sort of you almost imagine there's a jam story, like a jam movie, right, that you're sort of crafting like page by page every day and and you're writing that story and everyone looks at each other every day and goes like what's next, what's the next line, like you know, and it's sort of like do you know the line? Do you? Is this one? It's OK.

Ivanha Paz:

But that's exactly like you and Stacklist, it's like the same thing.

Kyle Hudson:

Right, I don't, I don't know. I mean, we, basically we, I just had a. This week is so different. We first started and I look back at the at the original pitch deck and it was a social bookmarking tool, right. So that was super useful to just save your stuff and maybe you can send it to a friend or whatever it is.

Kyle Hudson:

And what we've and what I've come to realize so much over the past like even two weeks, and so many different good conversations with advisors and things like that is what's missing in the world is a more culturally relevant, modern pinterest. But that is sort of the operating system for links in your life but also just makes it easy to share your favorite stuff with other people. And that evolution of how, that, how you get there, and has been less about how. Yeah, it's iterating every day over every line, as you know, in the script and and sort of like, and thinking about it and scribbling it out and writing it again and whatever it is. And it's so weird to think about how you imagine even businesses in the past, like, but you write a business plan, right, and you go do that plan, hey, and you have, like you know, you have sales-led advertising. It's pretty straightforward, it's all.

Kyle Hudson:

It's all sort of very um it's like it's all very straightforward and direct, yeah but like also kind of like.

Ivanha Paz:

I mean, there's some, some marketing teams that excel at this and they do it with joy and they make it into an art, but that I'm sure, uh, like I.

Ivanha Paz:

I mean I think, for example, gong Gong is really good at this. I admire them, but most of the time, like it's not even that effective Like, because it's like sort of you're based on like a lot of volume, a lot of sort of like measuring and tracking and seeing like okay, if we get a 10% conversion rate, that means we need this many people to down this, this and that, and so it's like I think hard as a marketer in that position, and I'm sure like talented marketers can definitely go ahead and talk to users and find out and do some awesome marketing anyway, but you're far away from users in that situation. Yeah, and PLG, like Gamma's product-led, and so is Stacklist you can just go sign up and so that vibe is like as a marketer puts you in a position to just like be talking to people every day and, without you even realizing it, you're building community and it's not even on purpose.

Kyle Hudson:

And you're coexisting in a very close space to the people who are using it right, which makes you better and more intuitive on how you can make it better and communicate to them, versus, in my mind, if we just sit up and sync up something really catchy or pithy and then put it out there and some people buy. You could say that's a success, but I think it's also. You can have companies that do that, but for us, what we're finding interesting is when we talk to creators. We'll talk to a creator has, you know, quarter million followers and say hey, we'd love to build you out a profile and basically curate all your favorite stuff and put it on your profile. If we did that, would you switch your current LinkedIn profile? And they're like yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Like there is no sort of like I'm really embedded in that community and I've been with them for a while and like I kind of work with them to make the product better. They're like no, sounds good, I'll save six bucks a month.

Kyle Hudson:

Like there's no, there's no loyalty or or community or sort of story between the, the user, and um and I I find that interesting um having having that sort of very like um binary you either use it or you don't sort of relationship with with users yeah, yeah, I wonder how you think about this kyle.

Ivanha Paz:

Like this is happening a little bit, um in the jam world, which is like at first it was like very clear, right, like jam community of users, um, but now it's like a little bit like confusing about like who's our community? How do we make sure that all of our users are in it? Um, there's a lot of people who are like probably are not jam users, but they're part of the community anyway. Like you know, they're technical and they're awesome. Like so how do you like blend those two in a way that makes sense? And at the end of the community anyway, like you know, they're technical and they're awesome. Like so how do you like blend those two in a way that makes sense and at the end of the day, you know, business-wise makes sense, like I mean, you want to.

Kyle Hudson:

I I think it's about having you know it's funny we've actually gone through a process over the past two weeks of setting up a really good and this is like shout out to lexi for setting up our discord but a really really good sort of well structured discord that we're going to open up soon and I've seen I went through I don't know how much either of you went through sort of the the like the early crypto boom over the past like couple of years when it's sort of like everybody was sort of started talking about Ethereum and stuff like that and but I was like I was in it, I was swimming in the and everybody lived in discords right, and you basically like you came in and they had games and you sort of checked in and you got status and points and and you almost like kind of felt like you were oh, hey, so and so and hey so and so, and I you know what I mean Like you start like and that's how basically the because a lot of crypto projects were were built off of the hundred percent. I mean, some of them had some utility, but most of them, like primarily, were a story that started from almost nothing into just this sort of reality distortion field. And then everyone in there is sort of saying like oh, I like this, and Discord was the one place where you could sort of create this community, together with voice and video and games and chat and links and all these sort of things. And I found it interesting how much the crypto community and NFTs like relied on Discord to sort of create these little bubbles where people could come in, kind of like the saloon or the watering hole where you just kind of popped in and you were like, hey everybody, what's going on? Like here's this thing I did, or you know, I bought this or I sold this.

Kyle Hudson:

This is what I did and I really liked watching that and seeing how that was created, because you think about like how different that is from. I mean, nike's a great brand, but I'm gonna pick on Nike for a minute, like the Nike Run Club or like the apps that they have, like they're on. I take that back. Nike actually has they have local groups that run and things like that, but I don't interact with those groups. I primarily just have kind of like the groups that are on my phone in an app, but it doesn't feel like anything that I'm sort of actively a part of from a like chat, sharing feedback, like that.

Kyle Hudson:

I'm kind of like in it, and I think what's really interesting is creating something like that, where people can just pop in and give feedback or like or get help or or share a win that you could share on social or like and and sort of creating a bit of that like, come dive into this with us and then also extending upon that, how about having in there you could have a jam betas group right, when it's sort of like hey, we're going to drop this thing, like the AI feature that I tried.

Ivanha Paz:

You're in the beta group.

Kyle Hudson:

I am in the beta group, no, but I also what's really interesting imagine having a beta chat group where you also had people sort of like continually going like hey, I tried the thing and here's my loom feedback and like, and they're talking and what you're doing is kind of like it's it's very much the developer github community right, where it's everybody's kind of in there and open source projects and you're trying and you're sort of building together. I think creates that community that you feel like you are helping build jam, even though you're not like on the payroll, um, which, especially if it's a brand and a product that you love, that can be, that can be, you know, um can feel, uh, like a little micro community that you're part of in your life um, prioritize this in their day.

Ian McClanan:

Right, there's a, there's so much like, so many things, right, you could be doing participating in a, in a, um, a different company's uh, private community, like, what is what is it like?

Ian McClanan:

What is this allow, like, allowing for you? Or like, and I think about for me, like the things that I like. One recent example was the the runway 48 hour ai generated film competition, and the reason, the reason I went, went in that discord was I was like I want to make a kick-ass film, right, and I don't know how to use this tool to make that film and it's annoying because I'm in the tool and I'm trying to do the stuff and I know that by being in this community, other people are going to share their tips and I'm going to figure out how to do it. Or I think about another one, like example of it like a video editor, like, like um descript, for example. Like I'm using descript all the time to edit, edit my stuff, and when I'm in there and I come up with a bug or something that's blocking me from doing my work, I want to, I want to voice it like, like you know, like as as jam as jam.

Ian McClanan:

we're probably like, okay, people are always surfacing all their errors.

Ian McClanan:

It's maybe like, ah, maybe let's not do it so loud, but for me it's funny, my hat changes because as I think about the script, I'm like I'm doing my work and I want you all to help me get this fixed, because I'm trying to do more of my work Totally to help me get this fixed because I'm trying to do more of my work right and so, totally, and so, with jam, it's like like we want to, like, we want to make that place such that when someone feels that, that like frustration perhaps, or comes across this edge case or whatever, they can voice this and then we can actually fix it and help them do their work right and so.

Ian McClanan:

So, yeah, so there's these, these different ways, right, but that's also a particular use case. There could be another one where it's like you know, like where we, but that's also a particular use case. There could be another one where it's like you know, like where we're. It's playing. A different use case or a different structure, right, I could see people yeah, totally, that's the first thing that comes to mind and a lot of times in those communities.

Kyle Hudson:

Even if you look at Descript, you know Descript or like they have, you'll end up having leaders sort of organically pop up and start to help those people solve that thing before you've even gotten to them. And so, like, there are moments where, like some of that stuff can can come up, and I also think it's. You know, one of the things I always found fascinating in in the sort of crypto NFT world was also like in discord is when they were going to launch something. They would put something in there and have like and be like hey, we're going to launch this thing, come help advocate, you know whatever, and people would basically go out and start posting and start like doing stuff because they felt like they were kind of part of it. And so I think it's interesting trying to figure out I think there are some people that wouldn't get in there, that wouldn't get in there, but I think it's interesting potentially trying to find a little beta group of like how interesting and interested, like could people sort of come around? Not so much that, like you're gonna, it's not going to affect the bottom line, it's not going to like it's not going to move more, but it will.

Kyle Hudson:

It would be one of those that. Are you creating a signal group right when you're like hey, we've got an idea and you go to the signal group and be like signal group, right where. You're like, hey, we've got an idea. And you go to the signal group and be like what do you think about this? And immediately, without going to run a formal user test with people you've never sort of that, you do it with people who sort of understand your journey and your intention and be like, hey, can I just get signal on this? And they're like that's a good idea. Or drop a meme and be like what do you guys think about this?

Kyle Hudson:

first, you know what I mean or whatever, and just have that little place where, where, where people could, could kind of give you signal and stuff.

Ivanha Paz:

I agree, like we. I think eventually we will have, like some, some sort of community platform hub. Right now it's like untethered, it's like everywhere, but but like it is there and it would be so good to be able to bring it into one place. It's just not not that easy like to just like put up a discord or or, like you know, set up a section. Like it needs to. It needs to be really valuable, and I don't think I know how to make that valuable yet.

Kyle Hudson:

I would. I would challenge that. If we go back to, if you go back to startup mode of just being like I don't know, let, I don't know, let's just try this and it fails, whatever, we'll shut it down, then you know, visual has have you guys seen visual electric? It's basically like. It's kind of like a really easy, modern, clean, mid journey where you can go in and sort of say like, hey, I want this. Like there's a, there's a duck standing in the middle of the room, he's wearing a funny hat and he's looking out in the sunset or whatever, and it'll come up and then you can like, tweak it and refine it and make it 4k and all these sort of things.

Kyle Hudson:

They just sort of popped up on my radar not not that long ago and, um, and then, not not long after that, they popped up discord and there's only three or four channels in there, but they're basically just people sharing some of the best art that they've done. That art then immediately turns into, uh, instagram posts and then they start sharing those instagram posts and then people are like, oh my gosh, my stuff got shared, like, and it wasn't sort of it didn't have to be this big structure, it really was just sort of, because you're going to have a certain percentage of people who are like I've never used discord.

Kyle Hudson:

I'm not really interested in chatting about stuff, but like, but the people who are you know what I mean might get in and give you some good feedback, but you could also be like experiment done. You know, not our thing.

Ivanha Paz:

You're right. You are right, like nothing is going to happen if it doesn't go well, or maybe it does. I think what is happening in my heart is like I don't know, like community is my favorite part of my job and I'm like protective of it a little bit, and I think that it's going to work if we do it right, like favorite part of my job and I'm like protective of it a little bit, and and I and I totally that it's going to work if we do it right, but it it feels like right now it's like there's so much stuff going on that that my fear is that it becomes something that, oh, let's just go experiment lunch and it just sort of stays there forever and then we don't really it could, it could, totally like.

Kyle Hudson:

Let me get, let me give you a, really a really quick example, like it's, almost like. So we started thinking about this, especially when we started looking at um, at gaming. So we've got two pro gamers who are, who are basically in the uh, in here and and this is wait, I want to be in that community. Totally, I'll invite you.

Ivanha Paz:

I'll invite you both.

Kyle Hudson:

You can come in and we can drop memes all day long, but, like you know, and being able to share your stacks and stuff like that, but like, just so we're and I will say that, like Lexi, who's one of the programmers that we're working with to do this Rainbow six siege tournament, um also does discord, uh, configuration and setup amazing, like professionally right, this is, this is how people get you know and like start here and here's, like you know how to get started and how to share, and like the server rules and like here's you know, we're gonna start fleshing out like how to how to stack stuff, and then we're gonna do like a gaming giveaway, but like even in the in the lounge or like the food you just like launched.

Ivanha Paz:

This is really well thought out.

Kyle Hudson:

It's awesome yeah, but I think like, and there's nobody, there's not that many people in here, but it's one of these. We've started. We've started adding people and some people say hi and stuff like that, but I'm not that worried about it. Um, but it is interesting. Like this is Visual Electric. They just launched and literally they have an announcements oh look, oh, look at this. This is the Discord that they did in their email. Check this out.

Ian McClanan:

Oh, that's awesome.

Kyle Hudson:

Oh, that's cool, and they made all that with Visual Electric. But then, like introductions, people say hi, this is Colin, he's the founder. He's like, hey, stoked to have you here. There's some inspiration so you can like get some really cool stuff that people made. This is totally made with visual electric, um, and. And then there's support and someone says hey, is things breaking? And he's like sorry, you're having this issue, we'll look at it and like it's super lightweight and it's not as fancy as ours. And you know, like this is basically what they launched.

Kyle Hudson:

And I think what, what he's, what Colin's finding interesting is especially around this, like inspiration stuff, like to be able to sort of, you know, see people using it like this and then potentially say, you know, amazing, can I use this in social? Yeah, sure, you know, great, you're just sort of like like, but I think you could actually do it. What would be really interesting is if you opened up like and our team will totally help your team like, build it. Like is to build one and just make it a super invite. It's like 50 people and you're only having 50 people in and it's literally you don't have to even check it every five minutes. You could check it like every day and everyone gets that. The vibe is like you know that honestly sounds around.

Kyle Hudson:

It's like you know 50 of your twitter friends on on a discord like totally and you're saying hi and like you're dropping stuff and like somebody's got a question or whatever, and you sort of start to get the vibe of what that community is. And then you let people in, sort of little by little or whatever it is, but not to not to harp on on, uh, discord, but I just think it's really interesting. Um, you know, when we think about like ideating this idea of what do you do with a sort of unstructured, untethered community, and start to figure out like how do, how do we more personally interact with you, rather than just like in tweets or in tickets or in intercom, like you know or?

Ivanha Paz:

something like that, and it's an interesting problem to try and solve yeah, I mean, I think most of our like interactions would have, like we host a lot of in-person events, right, but like, yeah, the problem with that is that it's like not scalable. So, yeah, we get to see a hundred people when we host events in that specific city.

Ian McClanan:

Which is not a problem, right. It's just a limitation, right, but yeah.

Kyle Hudson:

No, and I love going to the events and I always prioritize it when traveling.

Kyle Hudson:

And the last one.

Kyle Hudson:

I love the AI one and seeing stuff in real person and seeing everyone get together.

Kyle Hudson:

I think what's really interesting is, then, and I even think about like how do you, beyond sort of Twitter responses and stuff like that, how does someone like me get more in with you all, especially around things like the beta features that are coming out, or like my experience doing it, or like, um, oh, have you ever seen Story Prompt? By the way, it's so good. It's basically this app that you can send out a link and I can send you both the link. Our link is basically like HTTPS stacklist, forward slash, love, go to that. It's me talking for like 30 seconds and I'm like hi, I would love it if you could just turn your phone like this and give me a 60 second testimonial about what you think about Sackless, and so I send it up to people and basically what I get back is people going hey, my inch tile, this is what I do and this is you know what I've been doing and I really enjoy it and and I'll get those back.

Ivanha Paz:

And then I'll fire off like a starbucks card and be like thanks, and now I've got this like 60 second, you know video of someone saying like I love it, it's great um which is a cool different way to to sort of maybe interact with the community as well I think that really speaks to just like how, as a like how much of a natural I think you are, and and just like doing community, because, like it's not that easy to get people to take out their phone and record their faces and send you a video, like you you must have, I don't know, but built a really strong community, did some really good messaging, like it's light.

Kyle Hudson:

It's it's light right now, but I would say it's personal. It's one of those things that, like we, we, we keep up with people. We have inter, like we installed intercom almost immediately and it probably seems like too much of an overhead for like for launching with a site that already has a fully fleshed out intercom. But I've enjoyed being able to like we have this one person that came on who just started posting like an intercom this doesn't work and that doesn't work and whatever.

Kyle Hudson:

Jack, if you're watching this, like I love you. But we started going back and forth and then I sent him a. I knew he was in australia and I sent him a gift card for, like, food delivery in australia. And now we go back and forth and he's like hey, I like the new thing that you just launched and like I like this other thing that you launched or whatever. But like, trying to find that like two-way, I think is an interesting thing, without it becoming overwhelming or having to like build up a whole team to like manage it. But that's, I guess that's the thing is figuring out how you can sort of keep it personal without having to, like, you know, a bunch of overhead have you tried click?

Ivanha Paz:

no it can help, it's just oh really yeah, it's a really cool tool.

Ivanha Paz:

It helps you manage relationships and with ai, oh so it's like a crm, but like basically for like all your twitters and linkedins and emails, and so it'll tell you, like you know, if you have. If somebody like sends you like a calendar invite and you're not sure like who they are, like you could even ask like when was the last time I talked to them, or whatever, and they'll say like oh, you tweeted or you see this. So it's really helpful oh, amazing I am.

Kyle Hudson:

By the way, I, when I see stuff like this and the tools that I think you and danny did one right with, like the tools and I was writing back, I was like I'm I'm basically gonna sit here for the next two hours signing up for all these and like trying them. I do that. I sign up for everything and I try everything. Oh, I love it. I'm sure my email address is like that's why it's on the dark web is because I sign up for everything on the whole planet but I love this like literally signing up for clay right now um kyle I, I have one question for you.

Ian McClanan:

I um, yeah, I'm curious about your, uh, content vision for the company and, like, what are the types of things that you like to share and where you really see your storytelling going? Like, what are the types of things that you really are drawn to?

Kyle Hudson:

I think Danny and I even talked about this once, about startup, alex from the podcast Startup, which really to me was one of those first early, which really to me was one of those first early. What was the other podcast that really took off? The one about Anand Syed, the guy that was locked up? Oh my gosh, it was this American Life. They did a podcast. It was basically Startup and this other podcast and they both just went nuts and it was the early podcast era. But startup was so great because even the first episode it was basically alex like leaving his full-time job and being like I think I'm gonna start a podcast and he records every single sort of like interaction. So he goes home and he actually records the interaction.

Kyle Hudson:

It's a great episode where he goes with his wife being like I'm quitting and I'm starting a podcast company and she's like uh, okay, um, like, and you're just getting that sort of raw kind of feeling and I think what I really like is coming from big agencies and and consultancies and things like that. I just know there's much, there's so much like political and bullshit and like all, just all sorts of like stuff, and I think what I love is when you rip all that stuff away and you get into being an entrepreneur and you're starting up a small company and you're being part of it. You get rid of all that stuff and it's just like being a kid again when you're like playing with Legos or whatever. There is no like the hierarchy and the level and the politicals, and you know what does the partner think about this?

Kyle Hudson:

And like, and there's just all these sort of things that you can literally do what you two have been doing, which is just experimenting, having your owl lab experiments right and not having someone go like, excuse me, what's he doing and how much revenue is that driving?

Ivanha Paz:

You know what I mean.

Kyle Hudson:

And whatever that it's like no, no, no, no, let's. Let's like let's play and try and see and do, because that's like the lab is the only way that you end up innovating on stuff like that.

Kyle Hudson:

And so for me it's more about maybe just trying to get better at doing that kind of content really quickly and easily, hopefully to sort of share to people who who because I've been in this place for a long, long time where, even as I did acting and improv like in in past lives, um, but I never got good at doing this, which was just like here's- me and I'm just talking about it and I'm not in my head worrying about like a script or what I'm saying or like having it be polished or whatever it is, and I think the transparency of the ups and the downs and like building something and like trying to build something, hopefully would help someone else who would potentially be like I think I want to try something you know, what I mean, or I think I might want to record myself, or I want to document something, or I want to build a company and see where it goes, and so hopefully, the authenticity authenticity and the transparency are the two things that end up coming through the stuff we do from a content perspective.

Ian McClanan:

Cool.

Kyle Hudson:

Oh, it did it. It did it, do I get?

Ian McClanan:

one Hold on.

Kyle Hudson:

Sometimes the contrast has to be just right. Or maybe mine's return off. What would? Um, I would love to know. Oh, I, would like to know, um, like I know we're going to come up on time here in a minute, so I would love to know from y'all's perspective, like from the outside in, if you had, if each of you had, just one recommendation from, from a stackless perspective what what would it be, even just from like a story perspective, or how it's perceived, or how it's like knowing what it does and and where we potentially could be like what would your, what would your thing be?

Kyle Hudson:

we can all take a moment of quiet reflection too, like if there's people driving, they can. We can just take a break from this podcast, because we're all gonna just sit here for a minute, so don't worry, like you don't change the channel, but I mean, I think you're doing, like, all the right things.

Ivanha Paz:

Like I, um, I see you're like doing a lot of founder-led sort of like content. You're being active. You're on twitter, you've got the discord. Like you're sharing your product in a way that uh makes people want to see and find out and it's fun. Like I think you're all doing all all those things. Um, I don't know, maybe one, one little thing I guess could be like, ah, like, sometimes it's not super clear to me like the I like, am I the ideal user for stack list? Is ian the ideal user for stack list? Like, I think that there's so many possibilities that some specificity or help for your different personas or use cases I think it's harder because my vision also is who's the ideal person for facebook?

Ivanha Paz:

right, thank, thank everybody.

Kyle Hudson:

People, right, and so it's one of those things that I don't. It's not out of the realm of possibility in my mind that like people who save and share links yeah, are the people that I would like people who use browsers would be like, would be like my ideal persona. But because and there's a reason for this is because I think one of the things is broken. Just just take a second look around your room and name a thing that doesn't have to do with a link. Do you know what I mean? The stuff that you've curated in your life and the things that you like. This is my favorite coffee mug by fellow. It fits in the back of my jeans pocket and it doesn't like spill and I can throw it in my book bag. When somebody says, oh my gosh, that's cool, so can you send that to me? It's like can you just Google hello? And there's this barrier where I want to make it that I'm like oh yeah, hold on one second. Oh, I just texted it to you and you've got it, and then you can save it, and then you have that thing and we have this ability to share this moment of like, of sharing something, and I think it's about people who everyone curates their lives, so being able to sort of really easily and quickly like curate your life and then share it with other people is the ideal person I love that message curate your life because we do every day but you can't actually like name the last trip you went on like and then send me the top 10 places that you went on that trip uh, take me forever, I don't know

Kyle Hudson:

you'd be like in your head. You immediately go to this like 20 minute session where you have to sit down and like open a google doc and like do a bunch of research or whatever, and and instead of that you can go to my profile and um, it's stacklessapp forward, slash, kyle. At about halfway down there's my 2014 venice trip, which was one of my favorite trips ever, and you can just save all the places that I went like that yeah sort of like that's the thing that I want to. I want to.

Kyle Hudson:

It's like letting people know there's a better way to well in content, I think also is one of those things.

Kyle Hudson:

There's something else that can be paired with content content when you look at my Instagram profile, if you just, if you don't click into each video, if you just look at the thumbnails, if you didn't know me, tell me what I'm into and what my favorite things are. You can't do it because it's all sort of this like it's this, like in the moment, that sort of so. Now, if you go to my seconds profile and you go through, you're like oh, he's into photo and video and this is his like baffle music playlist and this is like he's into these books and this is like his travel stuff, or whatever. You get this like more holistic 360 view of someone. That gives you the ability then to be like I'm also into that, or I'm also into you know, or, or have something to discuss, versus what I think about when I think about a traditional sort of link in bio or or any of those sort of things where it's literally just like here's my discount codes, please sign up for my newsletter winnie, should we share jam's profile?

Kyle Hudson:

oh, yeah, yeah, jams, let me, let me here. I got it. Uh, oh, I have it, look, and I have it in one of my 2000 browser tabs.

Ian McClanan:

I think I'm thinking of my one thing for you and Stackless and I think basically, stackless feels like a foundational step is having a knowledge gap and that, like I want to know this thing about you and I want to know what these links are. And for me, I think about, like me, knowing my favorite creators, the tools, like, for example, all the stuff they use in their studio. That's like a very strong knowledge gap, and so the question is how can I, how can I identify what those gaps are in my, in my life, and what's the like compelling way to have that answer be a stack list, and so for me like as I think about, like, like you, I love tech reviewers because I want to know their gear recommendations.

Ian McClanan:

I love outdoor creators because I want to know the places that they know that are around me. I want to know who are, who are the domain experts and how do we get their domain of expertise as a knowledge gap that's solved through stack list and so, totally, I think who, identifying who those, who those specific people are and like they just feel so, like, so important to this, to solving this question, and so I guess that's where my mind runs.

Kyle Hudson:

I love that like I even think about you from. I love your personal content around, like running and and things like that. I think about like best running paths or or best running gear or things like that, and how you would actually connect up with. It's different following an Instagram, like an Instagram profile where you're watching someone else make content, versus if you also had something to pair with it, where you could literally save all their favorite stuff. And then imagine what's going to happen here soon is you're going to follow one of your favorite runners on Instagram and you're going to follow their running gear list and then when someone adds a new pair of shoes or a new like tech gear running tech gear to that list, you're going to get a little notification that goes like hey, they added this thing and it compresses the amount of time that it took to get that thing that they just curated to you. And then you get to sort of like try it or decide if it's something that you want to try and if it's your favorite thing that you then end up sharing out. So it's like it's like cutting through all of these different sort of layers of of being able to just share stuff with people.

Kyle Hudson:

I'm going to show that. I'm going to show the jam and Jam stacks and I love what you were just saying Even, even, in like. If you go to mine and I have like a travel essentials and books and my New York favorites and stuff like that. I have a like photo and video gear like. Here's my and this Leica, so forth is amazing. By the way, it's sitting over here on the on the on the um shelf with me but this is a Polaroid and basically what you do is point and shoot and you don't. It doesn't print every time. You only decide when you want to print a Polaroid and then it saves it on like a flash drive and you can print the Polaroids from the camera, which is amazing.

Kyle Hudson:

So, but like being able to, yeah, totally so, like, so like there's a screen on the back and you can basically take it and be like, yeah, that's a good one, and then press a button and the Polaroid comes out. And so the second I shared this like this video is like. It's like the one video that went like viral is not the right, right word, it had the sniffles, but like it went a little bit like somewhere, um, just because that was such an interesting thing. And then I basically linked people to this and of all the stuff I've ever shared, that one card is the one that gets like the most you know interest, and so for me to understand that and know sort of why and how that that happens is is really interesting um and so for.

Kyle Hudson:

Imagine, like ian, if you follow this list and I add a couple more things now, we sort of have this little thing that we sort of can talk about, like you know, similar interests on on like tech gear. Uh, so jam. Oh, I was actually I was showing, who was I showing? Oh, I was on the phone with someone from introcom and I was showing them a stack list and I jammed by the way, I jammed the site in real time to show them jams so that I tried to introduce jam to introcom.

Kyle Hudson:

So, by the way, if rad and team start using jam, I'm just I'm not saying I'm taking credit, but I sort of am so yeah so here it is, here's the here's the jam profile, so totally. And yeah, so here it is, here's the jam profile, so totally. And look, we've got some Ian down here too doing his thing.

Ian McClanan:

Doing the thing, yeah.

Kyle Hudson:

And I think what's so interesting that what we're also trying to sort of, what we're hypothesizing but we're still pushing into, is that this is what most people kind of get confronted with right in that sort of link in by and link in bio is only really one small part of of what we're doing.

Kyle Hudson:

But this is how I kind of think about it, that from a personality who are, who is ellie and what does she do this is kind of most of the time what we get versus like oh, let's explode some of that out first and then sort of create a little little nano networks around this stuff.

Kyle Hudson:

Imagine that the dev utilities if you all kept adding to it and that you had comments on here and we had likes and you could tell which one was the most popular and you could also tell that the base 64 encoder sat in 160 accounts. That would sort of give you signal about this. But it would also be one of those things that like again, I don't have to have a blog post with all this stuff on it. I've actually just got this right here. So when I want to pull that up again, I go here in the Chrome extension and I can type base 64 and just get that encoder and click it and start using it and so like it just sort of shortcuts, how how you can kind of get to some of that stuff.

Ivanha Paz:

And not just like how you can get to it, but also like how you can create it, like it's so easy to create a little card.

Kyle Hudson:

like yeah, um. And then also I think one of the things we've been seeing is people being able to bubble up some of their content and have it live on right, that you can pick something from a year ago and have it up here and be featured, or that someone else could see something like a podcast episode and save it into the same account. They would save their recipes and their favorite books or whatever it is that this piece of content sort of now lives on in my account kind of longer than it normally would if I kind of forgot about episode 25. So you're also sort of giving content and links and like um, a longer lifespan um than than it might have had before it's very cool, it's like.

Ivanha Paz:

It's like a a combination of ways of consuming content and sharing content that we all know, but combining them all it's like and sure it's like new. It's a new way to share well, we're pushing in that direction.

Kyle Hudson:

This is this is us, this is how we're building Sackless. We're just pushing in this direction and luckily you all are around us and we're like are we doing it right? And I appreciate you all coming in and help us figure out if we're headed in the right direction and kind of talking about it.

Ivanha Paz:

Thanks so much, Kyle.

Kyle Hudson:

Yeah Well, thanks for jumping on, uh, and sorry I copied the podcast name, um, but we love it. No, it's great it's great.

Ivanha Paz:

Wait, we need to get the. We need to do like a. I guess this is we've done. No, we need to do a crossover pod now. Jam stack list. You need to come on the building, damn lot jamming the stack list.

Kyle Hudson:

Hold on, we also need, I think we need, is we need, a screenshot? Uh, hold on, let's see, here we go, get your best, your best podcasting pose I don't know.

Ivanha Paz:

Oh, yeah, yeah, no, you should hold it.

Kyle Hudson:

You should hold it up, here we go. This is oh, yeah, yeah, no, you should hold it up, here we go. Great, okay, there's the thumbnail. Amazing, but seriously thanks for jumping on and I love these sort of discussions. You know just kind of exploring and talking and getting y'all's feedback and also understanding. You know kind of y'all's journey from when you started to what you're making and where it's headed. So I appreciate it.

Ian McClanan:

Thanks, Kyle Thanks.

Ivanha Paz:

Amazing, it's been really awesome Thanks for having us on.

Kyle Hudson:

Good seeing you, you, you you.